TUR: Collection of branches / connectors and unsigned segments issues

[michih]

I've changed the subjects of the posts. Posts about the general situation have the subject of the thread, concrete issues about individual routes are named to that, e.g. "O2".

[michih]

There seem to be a lot of exits missing on O2 (Main) and O2Okr. In addition, OSM indicates different exit numbers which should be checked.

https://travelmapping.net/hb/showroute.php?r=tur.o002 (including concurrent AH1, AH5 and E80)
https://travelmapping.net/hb/showroute.php?r=tur.o002okm

One of the missing O2 exits between wp 2 and wp 3 seems to be a new "connector" of O7 according to the Turkish O7 wikipedia article. It indicates the main route and five connectors:

Main Route = https://travelmapping.net/hb/showroute.php?r=tur.o007
Odayeri-Mahmutbey Bağlantı Yolu = https://travelmapping.net/hb/showroute.php?r=tur.o007cob
Başakşehir-Habipler Bağlantı Yolu = missing connector from O7Cob exit 13 to O2 b/n wp 2 and 3 (opened in 2021?)
Reşadiye-Ümraniye Bağlantı Yolu = missing connector but currently drafted as western segment of O6 which should be changed: https://travelmapping.net/hb/showroute.php?r=tur.o006
Liman Bağlantı Yolu = https://travelmapping.net/hb/showroute.php?r=tur.o007dem
İzmit Doğu Bağlantı Yolu = https://travelmapping.net/hb/showroute.php?r=tur.o007koc
Not indicated as connector on wikipedia is https://travelmapping.net/hb/showroute.php?r=tur.o007aks

I'm not familar enough with the Turkish roads and thus don't want to judge what's "correct".

I have not checked the wikipedia articles for other routes.

Edit: O7 issues striked through as they are all mentioned in the overview lists below.

[michih]

Another general observation: I had a quick look on GSV (where available) for several connectors and I think that the connectors are indicated on direction signs with the route numbers where they lead to. E.g. the route is indicated with O-X northbound and O-y southbound

Edit: Subject changed

[michih]

O2Sul was not touched for 7 years now. However, we have D20Sil on the same route (with different wps, turd system was drafted in 2019). O2 is not indicated on OSM nor GM and I didn't spot any O2 sign (nor D20) on GSV! OSM indicates it being D20 but GM calls it D16.

The western extension of O2Sul is in HB as O1Lib. OSM calls it D20, GM has no numbering and I didn't spot any numbering on 2021/22 GSV (quick check only).

I think that O2Sul needs to be removed, O1Lib likely too.
Edit, yes! O1Lib has white signs with "To O4" eastbound and white signs without numbering westbound.

Edit: Subject changed
Edit2: O1Lib info added

[michih]

O22Dud should not exist in HB. It's just an exit and many many others which are not in HB.

O22Ala is longer but also just an exit connectors - with has kinda interchange but missing in HB.

O22Bur is even longer and has a real interchange but also missing in HB Nevertheless, I don't know if it justifies being in HB. I'd say no. OSM and GM also don't have any numbering. Edit: white signs with "To O22" and "To E90" only according to August 2022 GSV and no numbering on leaving O22 main route.

[si404]

Let's also not forget the massive trans-continental bridge that opened about 6 months ago.

Are we looking at a situation where someone steps in and addresses the requested updates just to clear the backlog in Turkey?

Edit michih: Subject changed and addressed issue striked through

[michih]

We are facing a situation where one checks the region for an upcoming travel. The person will also meet the region‘s maintainer very soon and still hopes that the issues might be solved shortly. However, the maintainer just came back home from a long journey and prepares for a next long travel beginning later this month. Thus, the hope is little.

btw, what do you as the former maintainer think about the connectors? Keep or remove? Only keep those with interchange on the route, i.e. only routes with minimum three visible wps?

Edit: Subject changed

[si404]

The connectors were a Tim thing, not a me thing. However they are shown on maps, etc. And its not their fault that they haven't been give their own numbers as they would in most other countries.

Check signage and all that. Intermediate junction is a good idea. I'd also suggest that if its not another number, but is long enough to go into eursf, then keep even if its just two junctions.

Edit michih: Subject changed

[michih]

Check signage and all that.

I only had a quick look on O4Kar, O4Pen and O4Cay. None is indicated on OSM nor GM. None is signed on GSV (where leaving O4 main route).

Again, I think that (most connectors*) only have O numbers being meant as "To O-xx" with different numbers for each direction:

Another general observation: I had a quick look on GSV (where available) for several connectors and I think that the connectors are indicated on direction signs with the route numbers where they lead to. E.g. the route is indicated with O-X northbound and O-y southbound

*I haven't checked all routes though!

Edit: Subject changed

[michih]

I'd also suggest that if its not another number, but is long enough to go into eursf, then keep even if its just two junctions.

Reasonable! eursf or asisf or tursf? I think that it calls for the latter.

Edit: Subject changed

[michih]

First report from my field check this week* - more to come later:

The first O_1 sign westbound is just in front of the interchange with D_100, see April 2022 GSV. The sign tells us two things:
1. O_1 should be truncated at east end
2. D_100 is not routed via O_1! Confirmed by OSM, GM and April 2022 GSV on the main route. I guess that we need to split D_100 if OSM + GM are right that D_100 ends at the roundabout in Harem just north of the new Avrasya Tüneli instead of going through the tunnel.

I drove O_1 westbound today and it is only signed on the before mentioned sign and on a few signs more on the Asian side buth nothing in Europe! The signs are on white instead of motorway green direction signs because the road is not indicated as motorway. There are also no "km post" and the speed limit is 80km/h. O_2, O_3 and O_4 are indicated as "To" at interchanges, e.g. here or on the first GSV link above. Nonetheless, I think that we should keep O_1 in HB but also truncate it at west end on concurrency to D_100. That's (mostly) like indicated on OSM and GM too. That means, O_1 should run from exit 3 to exit 14 only.

*first time to Asia!

Edit 2022-10-16:
I think the last (blue) D100 sign in the west of Istanbul is at the D569 junction, see July 2022 GSV. There are only white signs east of it. I only drove the route inbound from Esenyurt to the city center and saw no D100 signs on the route itself (but sometimes "To" signs around, e.g. at a O3 on-ramp to what should be O3). I also checked the segment from D569 to Esenyurt on GSV but failed to spot any D100 signs. I suggest interrupting D100 from D569 in the west (European side) and the above mentioned roundabout in the east (Asian side).

[si404]

Reasonable! eursf or asisf or tursf? I think that it calls for the latter.

The latter sounds good.

I imagine you, doing site visits at the moment, would be much better prepped to see what needs to be done than I.

Edit michih: Subject changed

[michih]

I've split off all posts which are not related to (un)signed branches / connectors or segments. I'll add my general observations soon, and I will likely provide a list of recommended changes. Stay tuned

Edit: Subject changed

[michih]

Again, I think that (most connectors*) only have O numbers being meant as "To O-xx" with different numbers for each direction:

Another general observation: I had a quick look on GSV (where available) for several connectors and I think that the connectors are indicated on direction signs with the route numbers where they lead to. E.g. the route is indicated with O-X northbound and O-y southbound

My visit to Turkey confirmed the GSV check. A lot of signs just mean "To xxx".

Some examples:
- see O6/D550 mess: https://forum.travelmapping.net/index.php?topic=4862.msg29433#msg29433
- O2 + O3 on D100 as To on turning off
- O2 + E80 on D100 on the main line - note: no D100 sign! It's repeated at all exits inbound.

The signed connectors to tolled motorways are not a Turkish thing only. We face the same situation in France and Italy. Also Germany for trumpet exits. Those are not in HB. Only if they are signed well and have interchanges along the route (not just at both ends), we should think about having them in HB.

Suggestions:

O20: please refer to TUR: O20 exit numbers

O21 (Main): Fine. South end is not indicated on GM but km posts indicate O21.

O21 Bor (branch): Is signed on leaving main line (however, E90 too!). OSM and GM do not indicate O21 and it's only 4km long without any interchange on the route. km posts indicate O21A. Should we rename it to O21ABor? Anyway, there is no interchange on the route. I'd remove it.

O21 Kirsehir (branch): Is signed on leaving the main route (however, E90 too!). OSM and GM do not indicate O21 but km posts do. There is minimum one interchange on the route and it's about 30km long. East end is not covered well by GSV, I tend to keep the route as-is!. Anyone?

O21A: Exit numbers have been changed according to OSM and May 2022 GSV. The A in O21A is confirmed by May 2022 GSV although km posts only indicate O21. Change wp labels!

O22 (Main): Remove "(Main)" from csv files, rename D160/D200 wp to 4 as we can see on 2018 GSV, OSM indicates K4 and K8.

O22 Alasarköy (branch): Remove, see upthread

O22 Bursa (branch): Remove, see upthread, we might add it as tursf route if anything

O22 Dudaklı (branch): Remove, see upthread

O30 (Main): Remove "(Main)" from csv files, add exit 4-1 (on E881 too), also refer to TUR: O30/O33 transition at Menemen

O31 (Main): Signed well but check TUR: O31 exit numbering, we need to remove "(Main)" from csv files if we kick out O31Tor

O31 Torbalı (branch): OSM nor GM indicate it. The motorway begins at the roundabout (wp required), km posts indicate O31 all the way though. The length is about 3km. I think we should remove it from HB because there is no interchange (but a roundabout) on the route, it's short and motorway end is at the roundabout. And see O32Url.

O32 (Main): plese refer to TUR: O32 exit numbers, we need to remove "(Main)" from csv files if we kick out O32Url

O32 Urla: Same like O31Tor. Signed on km posts, roundabout. Remove. If we would tend to keeping it, we had to check three similar cases along O32 to the west.

O33 Menemen: Remove city name from csv files and check the issues mentioned under TUR: O33 (Menemen)

O33 Manisa: Remove and relocate D565, see TUR: O33 Manisa

O50: Remove, see TUR: O50 is signed as O51 and O52 now

O51 (Main): see TUR: O50 is signed as O51 and O52 now

O51 Tarsus (branch): Motorway begins at first interchange, whole route is signed as O51 on km posts (2015 GSV) but D400 is indicated on direction signs towards O51 (2015 GSV). No numbering on OSM nor GM. I think that a km post indicating O51 disappeared on 2022 GSV. I'd remove it from HB but O51Ser is similar just with km posts, see below.

O51 Serbest Bölge (branch): No numbers on OSM nor GM. Connector with one iinterchange on the route. Does still have O51 km posts according to May 2022 GSV. No motorway begin / end beyond the interchange though, and blue signs. Dunno. Anyone?

O52 (Main): see TUR: O50 is signed as O51 and O52 now

O52 Büyüktüysüz (branch): Remove, see TUR: O52Buy / O53Top

O52 Birecik (branch): Not indicated on OSM nor GM. GSV ends at the toll station. There is an at-grade junction in the middle. Remove!

O52 Koçören (branch): km indicate O52 on April 2021 GSV. Blue signs and at-grade junctions. Also here. Not indicated as O52 on OSM nor GM. Remove since there is no interchange on the route but just at-grade junctions.

O53 (Main): Fine

O53 Toprakkale (branch): Keep but see TUR: O52Buy / O53Top for general issues

O53 Çankaya (branch): Simple exit connector without interchange. No numbering on OSM nor GM. Green signs only up to the toll station just in front of the (end) interchange. Remove!

O54: Fine


That's the low hanging fruits. The difficult part comes later: O1 to O7 and D100.


@panda80: Let me know if you need any help on processing this!

[michih]

O4 (Main): Indicated till west end (albeit white signs) according to April 2022 GSV even beyond the end of motorway at O2 interchange. Please check for missing exits and correct exit numbering at east end.

O4 Kartal (branch): No number on OSM, GM, leaving main route. White direction signs w/o number (only "To D100") according to April 2022 GSV. No km posts. The route has interchanges. Remove from turo system, tursf candidate (see GM for name suggestion).

O4 Pendik (branch): No number on OSM, GM, leaving main route. White direction signs w/o number according to May 2022 GSV. No km posts. The route has interchanges. Remove from turo system, tursf candidate (see GM for name suggestion).

O4 Çayırova (branch): No number on OSM, GM, leaving main route. Green direction signs w/o number according to April 2022 GSV. But indicated on km posts. I failed to find end / beginning of motorway signs on the route main line but at the first exit. That's enough, keep as-is.

O4 İzmit (branch): No number on OSM nor GM. Not signed on leaving main route. No km posts, no interchange. Remove.

O4 Gerede (branch): No number on OSM nor GM. Signed as motorway on June 2022 GSV but no numbering towards O4. However, O4 is indicated away from the main line on July 2022 GSV. Also km posts. Keep as-is!

O5 (Main) Bursa: Remove "(Main)" in csv files. Please refer to TUR: O5/E90/E881 for general issues.

O5 Görükle (branch): No number on OSM nor GM. No number on leaving O5 main route. Green signs with O33 on June 2020 GSV. Even no number towards O5 main line on June 2020 GSV. Remove from turo system, tursf candidate? (see GM for name suggestion).

O5 Akhisar (branch): No number on OSM nor GM. No number on leaving O5 main route. No km posts nor interchanges on the route. Remove.

O6 (Main): Remove "(Main)" in csv files and check the issues (wp labels) mentioned in TUR: O6 opening

O6 Istanbul: Please refer to TUR: O6 (Istanbul) --> O7 (Çekmeköy). The eastern segment might be a tursf candidate (no name suggestions but maybe derived from city names like GM names above?). It's long enough, green motorway signs, connects O7 and D020, and has an interchange on the route.

O7 (Main): Please refer to TUR: O7 (Main) for general issues

O7 Çobançeşme (branch): Is signed as motorway and indicated on km posts, see TUR: O7 Çobançe?me (branch) for open issues.

O7 Aksemsettin (branch): The route connects O7 and O4 without any interchange on the route. There are O7 km post on May 2022 GSV + another one. Direction signs on O7 main route indicate O4 though according to May 2022 GSV. OSM nor GM indicate any number. I tend to keep it as-is since it connects two O-routes.

O7 Demirciler (branch): It is indicated on OSM + GM, has interchanges and is perfectly signed according to my observation. I'm quite sure that it is also signed on leaving O7 main route although 2019 GSV only indicates "O_ " for the main line and the connector.

O7 Kocaeli (branch): Is indicated on OSM but not on GM. It's indicated on direction signs on leaving O7 main route according to January 2021 GSV. Also O7 on the route towards O4 according to July 2022 GSV. The latter also tells us that "Ali" wp should be "25.1". I didn't spot km posts. Keep as-is.

Another connector is signed on O7 main line (exit 19) according to my observation and 2019 GSV. Also on the route itself southbound on June 2021 GSV. Route should be added.

Edit: O4Cay + O5 modified