canqc: Quebec Provincial Highways

[neroute2]

You'd only break files that have points on the longer piece. 138Mon would be an alt name for main 138.

[michih]

You'd only break files that have points on the longer piece. 138Mon would be an alt name for main 138.

oscar and charliezeb

http://travelmapping.net/hb/index.php?r=qc.qc138 (tooltip over "Total Drivers")

[yakra]

The longest segment of a same-bannered same-numbered route is the one that gets the blank Abbrev & City fields. There is no reason to change around which QC138 is which.

[neroute2]

The longest segment of a same-bannered same-numbered route is the one that gets the blank Abbrev & City fields. There is no reason to change around which QC138 is which.

That's not the case for AR 151 or MN 62.

[yakra]

AR151 has existed as a usansf route since before state systems were a glimmer in anyone's eye, and possibly since before anyone involved with the project even knew about the other AR151. Hence this name gets grandfathered in to preserve existing .lists.
Looking at MN62 in mapview, it appears that may have been similarly born from usansf.

The fact that some exceptions to the rule exist, for valid reasons other than "this bit goes through a big city" doesn't mean carte blanche to go creating more exceptions willy-nilly.

[oscar]

One other exception is the CA 162 segments, The western one, with the blank Abbrev field, is much shorter, but unlike the eastern one with an obvious city name (Oroville), the western segment has only the small and obscure town of Covelo.

The fact that some exceptions to the rule exist, for valid reasons other than "this bit goes through a big city" doesn't mean carte blanche to go creating more exceptions willy-nilly.

Could you point me to the rule? I looked in the "System Highway Lists" page in the manual, if it's there I missed it,

I like neroute2's suggestion. That's in part because I got repeatedly confused, when I needed to edit my list file lines for the Montreal segment, that it wasn't the vanilla QC138 segment. That's what I expected from its being the first (westernmost) segment, and also the principal segment through regions with millions of people, rather than just thousands for the Baie-Comeau segment. 

That it would break charliezeb's list file (and my own, which I can deal with) is what most bothers me. I could PM him to alert him to the change if we make it. A QC138Mon alt label would prevent list file breakage for the four dozen travelers on the Montreal segment 

[Jim]

If the decision is to make this switch, I can easily email the owner of charliezeb.list.  He updates at least weekly, sometimes more.

[mapcat]

Rule or not, I would prefer staying with the common practice of reserving the blank fields for the longest segment.

[michih]

Rule or not, I would prefer staying with the common practice of reserving the blank fields for the longest segment.

Me too. The longest route can easily be measured. Introducing a "most important route rule" or "first segment rule" would be the start of many long discussions.

The longest segment of a same-bannered same-numbered route is the one that gets the blank Abbrev & City fields. There is no reason to change around which QC138 is which.

Could you point me to the rule? I looked in the "System Highway Lists" page in the manual, if it's there I missed it,

http://travelmapping.net/devel/manual/syshwylist.php at "Connected Routes File format", last paragraph:

If there are two or more discontinuous routes of the same Route+Banner combination, each wholly within the same, single region, and one is significantly longer than the rest, the above rules would suggest using the region name for the long piece and city names for the short ones.

520mi vs. 350mi is significantly longer. I'd remove "significantly".

https://github.com/TravelMapping/Web/issues/398

[oscar]

Could you point me to the rule? I looked in the "System Highway Lists" page in the manual, if it's there I missed it,

http://travelmapping.net/devel/manual/syshwylist.php at "Connected Routes File format", last paragraph:

If there are two or more discontinuous routes of the same Route+Banner combination, each wholly within the same, single region, and one is significantly longer than the rest, the above rules would suggest using the region name for the long piece and city names for the short ones.

520mi vs. 350mi is significantly longer. I'd remove "significantly".

https://github.com/TravelMapping/Web/issues/398

A rather unusual placement and phrasing of the "rule":

-- We're not talking about a "connected route" here, and this would apply to both the chopped and connected routes .csv routes files.

-- "The above rules would suggest" seems to make this non-mandatory, with some discretion to "use the region name" for a shorter segment instead of the longest one where appropriate. Tim was not shy about writing no-exceptions rules, but it seems he didn't do so here.

I don't object to removing "significantly" so the default is usually to the longer segment. (But what if the shorter segment is being extended, so that it will shortly overtake the longer one? Not an issue for QC 138, since QC138Mon is not being extended anytime soon.) But a manual update should keep the longest-segment default discretionary, as I think it is now.

I would now keep QC 138 as is, but also retain existing exceptions.

[si404]

(But what if the shorter segment is being extended, so that it will shortly overtake the longer one? Not an issue for QC 138, since QC138Mon is not being extended anytime soon.)

I had something similar with the S5 in Poland - but instead of the shorter segments being extended and overtaking the longer ones, it was longer segments opening (the abbreviation-less pol.s005 route was a short 2 mile bypass, but thankfully was able to finally consume the larger bits either side that were both about 50 miles long a few weeks ago).

[si404]

I guess I better review the 2 routes I hadn't, given their names are topics of much discussion:

QC138Mon
 - USA/CAN is slightly off (also NY30)
 - route repeatedly leaves the red lines, and thus needs shaping points (visible and invisible) south of A-30. There are other places where this happens, for certain, in this system and they need to be fixed, but this was especially egregious (like a mile outside the lines, rather than a couple of hundred feet) and definitely needs pointing out!
 - move 1 south to fork, rather than have it on overbridge of road that the junction didn't intersect with
 - A-20(63) -> 4
 - A-20(64) to RueStJac_W needs redoing (mentioned upthread)
 - add points for Rue Cherrier (leads to A-40 exit 98), Rue Valmont (leads to A-40 exit 102), Rang Sainte-Philomene (leads to A-40 exit 141), Chemin Caron (leads to A-40 exit 166) and Boulevard des Recollets (leads to A-40 exit 198)
 - add point for Boulevard de la Commune in Trois-Rivieres (leads to A-40 and BoulStMau_W skirting downtown)
 - add point for Chemin du Lac (leads to A-40 exit 300)
 - A-73 -> A-40/73
 - add point for Boulevard Masson (leads to A-40 exit 308)
 - add point for Avenue Saint-Sacrement (somewhat corresponds with east end of west section of A-440)?
 - add point for Rue Soumande (leads to A-973 exit 5)?
 - add point for Boulevard Henri-Bourassa (leads to A-440 exit 23 and A-40 exit 316)
 - QC360_A /_B /_C /_D -> town suffixes or (B and C could be directional suffixes as concurrency split)?
 - add point for Avenue d'Estimauville (leads to A-440 exit 24 and A-40 exit 318)
 - move QC362 to overpass
 - Rang2 -> RueNotDame?

QC138
 - perhaps give it a name field, but no abbrev: Baie-Comeau or Sept-Isles?
 - ChLacSed is just an overpass and not an actual junction
 - there are some points in the middle of nowhere: you might want to check the labels, and whether they are worth keeping
 - add point for Rue Monseigneur-Blanche in Sept-Iles (replace RueNap?) as it leads to the ferries
 - add point for Sept-Iles airport?

[froggie]

AR151 has existed as a usansf route since before state systems were a glimmer in anyone's eye, and possibly since before anyone involved with the project even knew about the other AR151. Hence this name gets grandfathered in to preserve existing .lists.
Looking at MN62 in mapview, it appears that may have been similarly born from usansf.

Yes, MN 62 was part of usansf before the Minnesota state listings were created.

[oscar]

https://github.com/TravelMapping/HighwayData/pull/3535 incudes a variety of spot changes in QC, both cantch and canqc.

The csv files for canqc and canqca have been changed, but only to fill in city names (such as si404's suggestion to leave QC138 as is but add Baie-Comeau as a city name for the qc,qc138.wpt segment).

Other changes are mainly waypoint relabels for A-85 (Riviere-du-Loup), the two TCH routes, QC 112, QC 117, QC 198, QC 311, and QC 391.  I tweaked the west endpoint of the QC 112/A-10/A-55 false concurrency, and added hidden points to QC 335 to break its false concurrency with A-440. I also added points to QC 309 for a temporary detour north of Val-des-Bois.

This is just a start on canqc peer review changes. More to follow, as I recover from a prolonged low-level illness.

[vdeane]

I learned about a new data source on Québec route data today: http://www.dds.transports.gouv.qc.ca/

The interface is ancient, but the data is current (although it doesn't handle overlaps well, only returning one route).  I was able to confirm that the way we have everything routed around Rouyn-Noranda is correct.  Former QC 117 through town connecting to QC 391 is reference route 22117 on both ends.